# Getting to the Next Level

Key Passage: 1 Corinthians 3:6
Date: June 7, 2024

Great, great job. That’s just wonderful. There’s an old preacher, Lester Roloff, used to sing that song a lot of times, and it reminds me of that, and that’s just wonderful. He did a great job on it. Thank you so very much. Turn your Bibles to 1 Corinthians, chapter number three. 1 Corinthians, chapter number three.

I want you to listen real close. It might not be the most dynamic message in the world. We’re not after that. We’re after trying to help you through God’s Word. I want you to pay close attention and apply it. Now, I’ll apply it a couple different ways, but I want you to apply it to different areas of your life as the Holy Spirit leads. We’re going to talk about the subject: getting to the next level. That will be the title for the internet: “Getting to the Next Level.”

Young people, I want you to listen. I just think about as you grow up, you want to get to the next level—maybe in your finances, or your relationships, marriage one day. Can you imagine Jonathan and Michael married one day down front here? But it’s going to happen, probably.

For all of you, in the different areas of your life, maybe your marriage, maybe just having peace inside, enjoying life—just getting to the next level. There are many areas of my life I would like to get to the next level. I really would. Maybe my prayer life.

These areas of your life—getting to the next level—I want you to think. Now, at the beginning, we’re going to read this passage, and then I’m going to apply it. We’re going to pray. Then I’m going to talk about our church, and I’m using that as a springboard. Don’t lose me in that. My goal is not a message about our church or church growth. It’s a message about your life, getting to the next level. You can apply it in so many different ways, whatever ministry you’re involved in, your influence for the Lord at work—just always getting to the next level. I don’t know about you, but I like to get to the next level. We want that truth there, all right? I want you to listen very closely and ask the Lord to speak to your heart along this line.

The context here is the church at Corinth he’s talking to. There were cliques in the church. There were divisions. There were little groups. It was a very sad thing when in God’s house there are cliques in the church. It’s just a sad thing. You know, the Bible talks about how good and pleasant it is when brethren dwell together in unity. And it’s sad. Have you ever seen it in the church—this crowd over here and this crowd over here? Have you ever seen that?

It’s a sad thing, and it really hurts and harms the church. I praise the Lord, we’re not perfect at that, but I think we’re well above the average for sure. I pray it’s always like that. Satan would love to get that going. He works at it overtime. But that was what was going on in this church, and God addresses this issue through Paul. We’re going to just look at a couple of verses about that, and then we’ll try to get this thing—getting to the next level in your life.

Would you please stand as we read God’s Word together? 1 Corinthians, chapter number three.

Well, I got your attention all of a sudden here. 1 Corinthians, chapter number three. I don’t drink water very often. You just don’t have to. I don’t like to. I only have to in the pulpit. But I’ve had this dry mouth here lately. I just can’t get past it. As I did a wedding, some of you were there the other night. Man, I was just trying to get water in my mouth, and pretty soon my mouth, my throat was creaking, you know, and screeching. So if I have to stop and drink, please forgive me. I don’t do it because I’m just taking it lightly. Sometimes you’ve got to get a drink of water. I feel like I’m going to be there today, so help me with that if you would please.

1 Corinthians, chapter 3, verse number 6. Verse number 6. 1 Corinthians 3, verse number 6. If you’re there, would you say amen? Good deal. The Bible says, “I have planted”—that’s Paul. “I have planted; Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.” So then, neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now, he that planteth and he that watereth are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. For we are laborers together with God. You are God’s husbandry, if you will, God’s garden, if you will. You’re God’s husbandry; ye are God’s building.

Would you pray with me that God would just use this? We’re going to take this truth, talk about the church, but we’re going to apply it elsewhere. It’s a universal truth: God gives the increase. We’re going to apply it elsewhere in your life. Would you pray that God will speak to your hearts today? Let’s do that.

Father, we come, and Lord, I sure would like to be a blessing of help. I realize I cannot do that on my own, Lord. So, Father, would you take your Word, Lord, your Spirit, and this great truth, Lord, and apply it to every individual, Lord, even the young folks, all of us, in this matter, Lord, of getting to the next level? Lord, help us to have peace, joy, faithfulness over the long haul for you through these truths. Lord, we’ll thank you and praise you for what you do. It’s in Jesus’ name we ask. Amen.

Thank you so much for standing. You may be seated.

Years ago, at the beginning of our church, about 22 years ago, an older, wise pastor gave me some great advice. He said, “Now, Brother Paul,” he said, “typically it’s like this. It’s been like this in our church. You’re going to grow to a certain point, and then you’re going to plateau. It’s just going to kind of plateau out there for a while.”

He said the key is when you plateau, you just stay faithful. He said, “Stay right with God. Stay in the book. Stay in your prayer closet.” He even said this to me—can you believe it? He said, “Don’t get lazy.” I said, “Are you trying to accuse me?” He said, “Stay faithful. And when God is ready, He’ll take you to the next level.”

By the way, that’s the way it’s been in our church over the years. I was thinking about this morning. We started in a little bitty daycare—I’m talking about our auditorium. If you drew a line here, maybe here and across that front row, that’s about how big our auditorium was in the very beginning of our church. God kind of opened the door. I argued with them for a week about it; it was too small. God hit me upside the head and said, “We’re running 20. That’s what you want, you know.” Of course, He was right.

But we were there, and that’s what we ran the first several months—about 18, I’m talking Sunday morning, 20, somewhere along in there. There’s just a handful of folks that are here this morning that were in that daycare: Tim and Marion, Helen and Jimmy were there. My daughter, my mom—they hadn’t moved up yet, but they’d visit.

In that little place—and here’s the thing—we just tried to stay faithful, just 18, 20 people. A lot of Sunday nights, once we started—then we didn’t even have it in the beginning—a lot of Sunday nights, I was preaching to my wife and two kids. Well, that was good because I could get all those things in my wife, you know. And she couldn’t yell back at me during service. Now, later on, she could, you know.

But our three-month anniversary—my wife and I were talking about this morning—my daughter was sick, and so Tammy and Sarah stayed at home, and I went to church that day. We had tried to make a little big day out of it, but God had decided, “You’ve been faithful to that plateau.” And really, that day, in many ways, it was maybe the most miracle day we ever had, because God really just said, “All right, I’m going to take you to another plateau.”

This little bitty auditorium—it had a hallway down the right side of it—and God gave us 72 people. I’m talking about kids were sitting all around the carpet on the pulpit. I couldn’t hardly move. Everybody—adults were sitting in little bitty kids’ chairs like these we have in this back building back here. Adults were sitting in little bitty kids’ chairs. It wasn’t me. My bottom jaw was kind of hanging out. I had to pick it up and say, “Whoa.” People were saved that day. It was just one of those days. You go home and tell your wife, “You won’t believe what happened today.”

Let me tell you what happened that day. God said, “All right, that plateau—you’ve been faithful. I’m going to take you to another level.” After that day, of course, we didn’t run that every Sunday. We started running in the 40s, I’d say in the 40s for the most part.

This little bitty building—I’ll never forget. Tim Dempsey came to me one day. Tim, you know, he’s younger and just… He looked down at me and said, “Preacher, if you had to preach any longer, I would have passed out.” It was hot in there, you know. So we averaged maybe 40 for a while, and then God opened up our second storefront building about 10 months into it.

We moved in there, and a little bit after that, God took us up maybe 60, 70. He said, “All right, you’ve been faithful to that plateau. Let me take you there.” We were around 70-ish on Sunday morning for a couple of years. Then God opened another building, and we moved over there. For a while in that building, we were right beside Subway. It was along like a strip mall. Subway was the very end. We rented the next couple of sections there.

Everybody was listening at this point of the message, but somewhere along here, they started cooking that bread next door. Yeah, you got it. I lost everybody. They were thinking about food when that smell came through those just thin walls, and nobody was listening to me, you know. But God took us up to old 120s, and maybe 140 sometime in that little building. 120s maybe is the average. I don’t know.

And then finally God opened up over here, and God kind of took us to the—oh, maybe a little bit—and we expanded. And we’ve been at this level, honestly, for years and years: 150, 250, along in there, for years and years and years and years. I say all that to say, what do you do? You stay faithful. You don’t get lazy. You keep yourself—don’t get better.

Now let’s take this thing and apply it to your marriage. Man, I would love to have a sweeter, happier marriage. It doesn’t matter how good it is; I wouldn’t mind getting a little better. How about you out there? You don’t want a better marriage? Thank you, brother, for being honest with me. Yes, I want a better marriage. I’m with you, Brother Chip. All of us.

How do you get to the next level of marriage? You do this, this, this… Can I say this: you can’t change your mate. We have a lot of people that are in trouble. I only have one couch in my office, all right? Look, you say, “All right, how can I get there?” You are not going to change your spouse. Can I say this? You can’t even change yourself, the heart of you. God does that.

So how in your marriage do you get to the next level? Husbands, keep loving your wives. Wives, stay supportive and say, “I’m going to encourage. I want you to be the leader here. I want to respect you.” Keep saying it’s a sweet life, and you stay right in that marriage. You keep being what you ought to be in that marriage, and you work at that. But you realize God is going to be the one that brings the increase. What does the Bible say? “Except the Lord build the house.” Amen. Remember that over there in Psalm 127? No, God’s the one that brings the increase in your home.

Look, we think we can do so much, friend. You realize you can’t even put real, true love in your heart? You can’t make that happen. Now, you can give the symptoms of it, and that’s right to do. But God is love, and He puts that true love in your heart.

I’m just saying, you say, “I’m struggling. I have anxiety problems,” or “I fight depression,” and I fight all these issues, maybe baggage from my past. I would love to get to the next level in my life. How do I get there? Stay in the Bible. Stay in the prayer closet. Keep hanging tight to God and say, “Lord, I have problems with anxiety. It’s about to kill me. I’m going to hang on to you as tight as I can.” And the Lord, in His time, in His way—sometimes He’ll bring new things into your life you need—but it’s God that brings the increase. God, in His time and in His unique ways, like only God can do, He takes you to the next level. He brings the increase.

We get so humanistic in our thinking: “I’m going to do all this.” Friend, the great increase, going to the next level—God does those things.

You say, “Preacher, I’m struggling against sin.” By the way, we all have our besetting sin that does so easily. It’s interesting how God says “does so easily.” You have a sin—all of us do. It’s called chocolate pie for me, amen. A whole lot of pies, all the pies, you know. But all of us have a besetting sin that easily besets you. As you grow, maybe you pass that one, but it’s always going to be something until you get to heaven that easily besets you.

You say, “Preacher, how can I get to the next level in this thing?” You ought to fight it. You strive against it. You work at it. Don’t just give in to that sin and go over there and wallow in the sin. No, no, no. Hebrews 12:4 says, “You have not resisted unto blood striving against sin.” That’s pretty strong language. You fight against that sin until you bleed for it. But you realize you keep fighting against it, and in God’s time, God takes you to the next level.

Or you say, “You know, I haven’t fallen in a while, and it’s not the battle like it used to be.” I don’t know where it came from. It just seemed like God just somewhere along the line… Some of you are battling wicked music. By the way, Satan has music, you know. He’s very good. Satan, I think, was the song leader in heaven. He’ll just get this music where you’re feeling all good, and they’ll be pumping his words.

You say, “Preacher, man, I’m trying to get off this wicked music, and I’m trying to replace it with good music, but man, my mind keeps going back there. I’ll go to the grocery store, and they’re playing that music, or I’m watching a ball game, and they play that music, and then I’m stuck back in this rut. How do I get to the next level?” Keep struggling against it. Keep listening to the right kind of music. Don’t give up. Don’t give in to that wicked music. Keep battling it. And in God’s time, God changes your appetite and takes you to the next level.

Some of you men say, “Man, preacher, my mind has been corrupted by immoral pictures and pornography and all that.” How do I get—I would like to have a pure mind. How can I get there? Battle it. Avoid any kind of pornography. Avoid bad pictures. If you can’t go to the mall, don’t go to the mall. Just stay away from anything along that line. You say, “I’m going to fight against this sin till it costs me blood.” And God, in His time, says, “They’ve been battling that. I’m going to take them to a new level.” Now it’s still there, but you’ve got more strength in the battle. You’ve entered into a new arena where that might not be your major thing. Now you’ve got new enemies. It’s still there in the background, but God’s giving you new strength in this thing, and your mind has become purified.

That’s what God works. Maybe it’s not that. Maybe it’s just critical thinking. Everywhere you go, you see everything bad there, and in your mind, you’re always kind of critical of other people. You say, “Preacher, I don’t want to be like that.” I’m glad if you don’t want to be like that. I don’t want to be like that myself. “Preacher, how can I get past that?”

Can I just say something? There’s not always this silver bullet—boom—but day in, day out, you say, “No, I’m not going to talk about it.” The Bible says that they that will love life and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil and his lips that they speak no guile. I’m not going to talk about it. When it comes into my mind, what does the Bible say? The Bible, by the way, it doesn’t say you’re supposed to have control of every thought that comes into your mind because Satan can put thoughts in your mind (Acts 5:3). But the Bible says, “Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.” So as soon as it comes into my mind, I bring it into captivity. You keep battling that critical thought—Lord, forgive me. By the way, critical thoughts typically are just pride, which is all it is. You just keep battling it, and you battle it, and you battle it, and you battle it, and you battle it. And you’re all right. Let me take you to a new level. You’re not battling you so much; you just have a love for people. You care about it. We’re all wired a little different. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses.

I think about a man in our church. He had pretty much most of his life—oh, maybe he was in his 40s when he had the battle, late 40s, I would say—and he had just most of his life. I think as a teenager, he had started smoking and chewing and dipping, I think, too, and all the tobacco things. He had overcome the bottle years before, but boy, in the beginning of our church, he battled this thing of tobacco. It was over a year, I know. He kind of gave up the cigarette first, but he still wanted something, so he would chew for a while and dip and all that. I watched him struggle and struggle and struggle. “How are you doing?” “I lose here and there.” It was wonderful to watch him stay in that battle. God, in His time, watched him fight that fight long enough, and God said, “You know what? You’ve been planting and watering. I’m going to bring the increase.”

That’s the way you get to new levels. It’s very important that you and I get that right mindset. It’s more than a mindset; it’s a heart set. Because we know that sometimes in our mind, God brings the increase, but our heart doesn’t know that, and Satan can get our heart going the other way. But it’s such a more peaceful way of living when you realize in your heart, God brings the increase.

Let’s look at this real quickly. Would you do that? It changes some things. Look at verse number seven right there, would you please? Verse number seven. Y’all still with me out there? Amen. Look at verse number seven. 1 Corinthians 3, look at verse number seven: “So then, neither is he that planteth anything, neither he that watereth, but God that giveth the increase.”

Can I say it this way? This way God gets the glory. This way you don’t go around to everybody else, “Let me tell you how to have a good marriage,” and they’re struggling, and they don’t want your advice. You don’t go around, “Let me tell you, God’s the one that blessed our marriage.” Then, as a pastor, “Well, we’re running such and such, look at us.” You don’t do all that. You say, “God, God got us.” God gets the glory this way. It’s a biblical mindset, heart set, realizing, “Hey, God brings the increase.”

I was simply taken with that wise preacher who spoke to me years ago. I was talking with one of the guest preachers Tuesday night, trying to pass that along. He had just started a church a couple of years ago, and they are struggling. He didn’t need somebody to say, “Well, if you do this or that, brother, you’d grow.” He didn’t need all that. He needed somebody to say, “You know what? This is what happened for us. We grew a bit, plateaued, and we just tried to stay faithful.”

You know what I told him? And this is honest truth: I said, “Brother, it seemed like when God took us to the new levels, it wasn’t like the day after I’d prayed all night long. It wasn’t at all. It wasn’t after I decided I’m going to go solely for 12 hours a day, seven days a week, for the next 30 years. It wasn’t all that. Half the time was when I felt like I wasn’t being the Christian I ought to be. But I was trying. I was failing, but God said, ‘I’ve seen you be faithful. I’m going to take you to the next level.’”

You see how God gets the glory there? You see the difference between saying, “Well, if you do this, you’ll have peace in your heart”? I understand there are some Bible formulas there, but friend, they might have a little bit more baggage than you have. You understand where I’m coming from? By the way, it’s the peace of God that passes all understanding, not the peace of our formula. God brings that.

Not only does God get the glory, but can I say this: the pressure’s off of you. Help me out. What are you going to do if you have a spouse that’s just obstinate to God? You say, “Well, that’s not going to happen.” Well, it happened to Jose in the Bible. Y’all with me out there? Don’t get quiet on me now.

Friend, I’m saying you can’t control all that as far as what your spouse does, but you can be right with God—husband, wife, and all that—and say, “Lord, I’m depending on you to bring the increase.” You understand how God brings the increase, not us. As far as you being this dynamic, get-everything-done person, nobody really is. The pressure’s off; you just do right, and God’s the dynamic one that gets it all done. It’s a different heart set, mindset for Him.

Number two: You realize rewards are for your labor. Then look at verse number nine, if you would please. Verse number nine. 1 Corinthians 3, verse number nine: “For we are laborers together with God.” Did you get that? We are laborers together with God. You’re God’s husbandry, you’re God’s building, but we are laborers together with God. I’m saying, you have to do your part. God brought the increase after Paul had planted and Apollos had watered.

I’m just going to lay out and be a sorry husband. I don’t care what they say about me being in the wild. I’ll do what I want to do, all right? Good chance God’s not going to bring the increase. God is the one that brings the increase; He gets the glory, but for some reason God wants us to labor together with Him. He wants you laboring too.

Help me out. If me and God, maybe we’re chopping a tree down with an axe—it’s old school, you know. When I got my axe, I’m just swinging as hard as I can, and God comes along and whoosh! Who do you think is going to make more chips fly—me or God?

It’s not that your labor accomplishes so much, but God, for some reason, wants you in the formula. When He sees you’re laboring together with God, and God says, “Hey, little fellow, I see you trying to chop that tree down. Let me come over there.” God just blows, and the tree falls down. God takes you to the next level, but He does want you doing your part. God could do anything, but God said, “No.” You know, it isn’t funny, “The harder I work, the luckier I get,” they say. I know there’s no luck with God, but the more God blesses—that’s the honest truth. The big part is what God does.

That wise old preacher all those years ago said, “Brother Paul, stay after souls. Stay in the book. You’re going to get hurt; don’t get bitter.” He told me, “Don’t you get lazy. Keep working hard. God sees that laboring together with Him, and in His time, His way, He decides to take you to the next level.”

Your depression—don’t get over in the corner and suck your thumb like I did. You’ll suck it off, folks. Don’t do that. By the way, I was about to do that when Tennessee lost yesterday. You have to battle it. You have to do your part.

I’ve used this so many times, but I can’t think of a better illustration. Have you ever seen a dad who is going to move the coffee table? The honest truth is, Dad can pick that coffee table up, and it’s no problem for Dad. Dad can pick up that coffee table, no problem. He can pick it up and carry it around wherever. But Dad says, “Johnny, come over here. Help me out, Johnny. Come on, John. Let’s pick it up.” And you know the honest truth is it hurts Dad’s back worse to carry it like that. Dad’s stumbling around because Johnny’s on the corner of the coffee table. Dad can do it a whole lot easier, but Dad wants Johnny on the corner of the corner.

That’s the way it is, folks. We don’t get it all done, but God wants me and you. I told one of the preachers the other day, “I don’t know why, every once in a while I like to get off the corner of the coffee table.” But God said, “No. He carries the weight. He’s the one that moves it. He’s the one that takes you to another level.” But for some reason, your Father wants you on the corner of the coffee table. Little Johnny’s over there saying, “Dad, I’m helping.” He’s not doing much at all, but Dad wants him there. God wants you there laboring together—your marriage, your finances. The Bible says a faithful man shall abound with blessings. Just a guy faithfully trying to carry his corner, honoring God. God brings the increase in His time.

Let’s skip a couple things. Would you look over—we’ll be done—look over Luke chapter number eight, please. Luke chapter number eight. What do I do while waiting for God to take me to the next level? Luke chapter number eight, please, real quickly here.

Luke chapter 8. Would you look at verse number 15? He is explaining the four different grounds where the seed was sown: one by the wayside, one by the stony, one by the thorny, and one by the good ground. The good ground brought forth a lot of fruit. Look at this verse. Luke chapter 8, verse number 15: “But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it.” You have to do your part, and bring forth fruit with patience.

“Lord, would you take me to another level? I would like to have more faith in my Christian life.” Keep memorizing those Bible verses. Keep praying about it. Keep choosing faith. You stay faithful, and in God’s time, God says, “All right, you’ve been on that plateau long enough. Let me take you to another one.” What do you do while you wait? Stay faithful. Stay faithful. What do you do? You stay right in an honest and a good heart.

You say, “I have problems with my temper, my anger. I do things I ought not do.” Don’t keep an honest and good heart. Don’t start justifying, “Well, this is just the way I am.” Well, that’s just why you are going to be when you ruin your kids, and you cut them off, or they close up to you because you just blow up on them. No, you stay in there. You keep admitting, “Hey, this is wrong. I’m going to work at this thing.” And when you mess up, you go back and say you’re sorry. And you stay right. Don’t get bitter. Don’t try to justify your issues.

Can I say this as part of this staying right, honest and a good heart? The only way to have a good heart is to keep bringing your heart to the Lord every day. “Here’s my heart, Lord,” every day. Just bring it to Him. Point out my problems in my heart. I’m going to confess to Him, get them right. “Lord, would you lead me in the way everlasting? Lord, guide me.” And give your heart to Him. In His time, He brings forth fruit.

How many have had a garden? You planted those seeds, you plowed it, and all those things, but you can’t make it grow. It’s exciting when you see the thing pop up, and then it grows, and you say, “Man, I got some green beans out there!” God brings the increase, but you have to do your work. It doesn’t happen overnight. You stay faithful, stay right.

And then the last thing, let me just say this: you wait patiently. Did you notice that last word of verse number 15? “Bring forth fruit with patience.” Lamentations 3:26: “It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.” That “quietly wait” means humility. What’s the Bible formula? How you exalt yourself, God humbles you; you abase yourself, God lifts you up. He takes you to the next level. You just humbly wait.

“I can’t take it any longer.” God says, “Well, it seems like you need a little bit longer on that plateau right there. You’re not growing enough.” By the way, He’s growing you in ways you’d have no idea. God says you probably need about a year or two there. You just patiently, in faith, say, “Lord, that’s where you’ve got me. I’m going to enjoy where I’m at. I’m going to try to be the husband, the wife. I’m going to try to handle… I’m going to try to do right by my finances, but I’m just waiting for you.” Yeah, God, in His time, brings forth fruit.

Check out the great Christians in the Bible. David was out there watching sheep when God sent Samuel: “Go get that boy out of the woods.” David was just out there being faithful where God had him on that plateau. Joseph, 17 years old, sold into slavery by his brothers. He’s 30 now; he’s in prison, but he stayed faithful. God said, “All right, you got all the lessons you need on that plateau. I’m going to take you to another.” Moses was in the backside of the desert at the burning bush. He’d been watching sheep, but he’d been faithful. God says, “All right, Moses, I’ve got a job for you to do.” God brings the increase.

Can I say this? I’m almost done. I think God comes to every individual in the world at least one time, in a special way, and convicts them about getting saved. He says, “Hey, you’re a sinner.” He reproves the world of sin, and you’re a sinner, and you need a Savior. That’s why even some tribes out in the jungle will feed that baby to a crocodile, thinking they can get peace with God. They have conviction in their heart. They follow the light. God gives them more light. God’s trying to take them to the next level.

There was a good day for me. I don’t know if I was seven or eight years old. Somewhere along there, just a boy, there was a little season in my life. I used to lie in my bed at nighttime thinking about going to heaven or hell. God was trying to take me to another plateau, trying to get me saved. I’d worry about that thing. I said, “Lord, I’m supposed to be a part of this. My part was just receiving it.” I was riding home from church—I don’t know if it was a Sunday night or Wednesday night—in the backseat of that car. I prayed to the Lord, “Lord, you’ve got to save me. I’m a sinner.” And God reached down, and it took me to the next plateau. I’m going to heaven as a child of God now.

I was talking to a lady years and years ago about her marriage and whatnot. I was trying to find out what her default mode was, if you will. I said, “Hey, did your parents have a good marriage?” She said, “They fought like cats and dogs. But they stayed together.” And she said, “It just seemed like they had fought for so many years, and then something happened. And they had a sweet, sweet marriage for years and years.” Can I tell you what happened? They planted and they watered. And when God got ready, He said, “I’m going to give increase.”

Original File: Getting to the next level - Pastor Paul Chisgar Sunday AM 32022